rcdavis Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 From beckers hospital review, results of american medical group survey of >200k physicians, of which 68k responded. Here are the latest numbers of what the docs are making... Top: interventional cards in the cath lab Bottom: Peds Interesting divisions by fifths. Physician specialty Compensation in 2012 Percentage Change from 2011 Cardiology (cath lab) $547,112 4.27 percent Cardiac/thoracic surgery $525,944 -3.33 percent Orthopedic surgery $525,000 1.79 percent Diagnostic radiology (interventional) $504,772 4.02 percent Diagnostic radiology (noninterventional) $453,216 -1.30 percent Gastroenterology $432,616 -0.58 percent Urology $424,603 2.17 percent Cardiology $420,991 -2.17 percent Dermatology $411,499 3.56 percent Anesthesiology $394,734 4.60 percent Otolaryngology $383,141 2.34 percent General surgery $373,478 0.93 percent Ophthalmology $372,552 0.15 percent Pathology (combined) $354,054 -2.61 percent Hematology/medical oncology $350,268 0.61 percent OB/GYN (general) $312,541 3.03 percent Emergency medicine $301,000 1.18 percent Pulmonary disease (without critical care) $300,646 -1.40 percent Hypertension/nephrology $277,449 -0.17 percent Allergy/immunology $270,904 1.04 percent Neurology $255,004 2.31 percent Infectious disease $242,447 5.64 percent Hospitalist (internal medicine) $241,250 2.01 percent Rheumatologic disease $240,250 -4.89 percent Urgent care $239,733 -1.00 percent Endocrinology $234,258 5.81 percent Internal medicine $226,833 1.08 percent Psychiatry $224,878 3.54 percent Family medicine $223,810 2.03 percent Pediatrics/adolescent (general) $222,827 0.99 percent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2013 that looks about dead on for em at least. most of the em docs I work with make 145-190 dollars/hr. the fp docs I work with make 80-90 dollars/hr PAs in em around here make 65-70 dollars/hr + benefits or up to around 100/hr without benefits(one local facility pays 85/hr + 15/pt. ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAdamsPAC Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 From beckers hospital review, results of american medical group survey of >200k physicians, of which 68k responded. Here are the latest numbers of what the docs are making... Top: interventional cards in the cath lab Bottom: Peds Interesting divisions by fifths. Physician specialty Compensation in 2012 Percentage Change from 2011 Cardiology (cath lab) $547,112 4.27 percent Cardiac/thoracic surgery $525,944 -3.33 percent Orthopedic surgery $525,000 1.79 percent Diagnostic radiology (interventional) $504,772 4.02 percent Diagnostic radiology (noninterventional) $453,216 -1.30 percent Gastroenterology $432,616 -0.58 percent Urology $424,603 2.17 percent Cardiology $420,991 -2.17 percent Dermatology $411,499 3.56 percent Anesthesiology $394,734 4.60 percent Otolaryngology $383,141 2.34 percent General surgery $373,478 0.93 percent Ophthalmology $372,552 0.15 percent Pathology (combined) $354,054 -2.61 percent Hematology/medical oncology $350,268 0.61 percent OB/GYN (general) $312,541 3.03 percent Emergency medicine $301,000 1.18 percent Pulmonary disease (without critical care) $300,646 -1.40 percent Hypertension/nephrology $277,449 -0.17 percent Allergy/immunology $270,904 1.04 percent Neurology $255,004 2.31 percent Infectious disease $242,447 5.64 percent Hospitalist (internal medicine) $241,250 2.01 percent Rheumatologic disease $240,250 -4.89 percent Urgent care $239,733 -1.00 percent Endocrinology $234,258 5.81 percent Internal medicine $226,833 1.08 percent Psychiatry $224,878 3.54 percent Family medicine $223,810 2.03 percent Pediatrics/adolescent (general) $222,827 0.99 percent So when your SP starts with the poverty and hard times speech during your annual review when you get to the cash part.......think of these numbers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David the Nome Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Crazy. Why aren't we all just going to med school again?? Tomorrow I'll have to see if I can get my hands on a set of MCAT review books... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 21, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 21, 2013 Crazy. Why aren't we all just going to med school again?? ochem, mcat, 4 years without an income, 1 million dollars in lost salary/cost of school expenditures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalPA Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 that looks about dead on for em at least. most of the em docs I work with make 145-190 dollars/hr. the fp docs I work with make 80-90 dollars/hr PAs in em around here make 65-70 dollars/hr + benefits or up to around 100/hr without benefits(one local facility pays 85/hr + 15/pt. ). Just curious how you'd calculate the annual salary? How many hours per shift? How many shifts per month? Particularly thinking about the EM PAs with benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemarco Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 ochem, mcat, 4 years without an income, 1 million dollars in lost salary/cost of school expenditures... If one were to have already completed the OChem and scored over a 30 on the MCAT (and that individual were currently unemployed), would I be correct in assuming that you would recommend Med school with a EMed residency over becoming an EMed PA? Up until last week I was totally on board with becoming an EM PA, but after seeing in person how boring the fast track was and how much supervision the PA's had in the real ER, I am left fraught with doubt. The ostensibly shorter work hours and shorter school appealed to me (especially with my turning 30 next year), but I'm starting to see that the career is not all that magazines like US News and World Report make it out to be :sad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 22, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 22, 2013 If one were to have already completed the OChem and scored over a 30 on the MCAT (and that individual were currently unemployed), would I be correct in assuming that you would recommend Med school with a EMed residency over becoming an EMed PA? Up until last week I was totally on board with becoming an EM PA, but after seeing in person how boring the fast track was and how much supervision the PA's had in the real ER, I am left fraught with doubt. The ostensibly shorter work hours and shorter school appealed to me (especially with my turning 30 next year), but I'm starting to see that the career is not all that magazines like US News and World Report make it out to be :sad: hell yes! apply broadly, both MD and DO. there are some good pa jobs out there for em pa's but not many are entry level. most involve a residency or 5-10+ yrs experience. to the best of my knowledge there are <10 high quality(great scope of practice/autonomy/respect) em pa positions in my state. I now have one of them. don't think of MD/DO residency as school, think of it as your first job as a physician. In my mid-40's and almost done with an academic doctoral program I am still thinking(although not very seriously at this point) about finding a way to be a physician....just need a sweeter bridge program....:).....2 years, no mcat, no ochem and I would still go, although at this point I would do FP, not EM as FP still allows you to do rural EM(my primary interest) + lots of other stuff like ob, hospitalist, icu coverage, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 22, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 22, 2013 Just curious how you'd calculate the annual salary? How many hours per shift? How many shifts per month? Particularly thinking about the EM PAs with benefits. dollars/hr x hrs/yr. shifts vary in length and in number. most em pas I know have more than one job as well. one for the benefits and one for a better scope of practice or more money/hr. I currently have 3 jobs and between them work 175-210 hrs/mo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medman2007 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 but after seeing in person how boring the fast track was and how much supervision the PA's had in the real ER, I am left fraught with doubt. The ostensibly shorter work hours and shorter school appealed to me (especially with my turning 30 next year), but I'm starting to see that the career is not all that magazines like US News and World Report make it out to be :sad: This is so dependent on facility and location. My first ER job as a PA at a bigger, "inner city" facility left much to be desired as well; the docs and staff were great but hospital policies prevented us (PAs and NPs) full autonomy and acute/critical levels of service. I was getting ready to leave the ER scene altogether until met a recruiter looking for PAs in a more "outlying", and PA/NP friendly environment. The two facilities are like night and day- much more autonomy, counted on to take all levels of patients, and good raise to boot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 22, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 22, 2013 yup, once you get out into rural areas em is pretty much run by fp docs and pas because they can't afford an em doc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMD16 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Neurological surgery not on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalPA Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 dollars/hr x hrs/yr.shifts vary in length and in number. most em pas I know have more than one job as well. one for the benefits and one for a better scope of practice or more money/hr. I currently have 3 jobs and between them work 175-210 hrs/mo. Thanks EMEDPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemarco Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 hell yes! apply broadly, both MD and DO.there are some good pa jobs out there for em pa's but not many are entry level. most involve a residency or 5-10+ yrs experience. to the best of my knowledge there are <10 high quality(great scope of practice/autonomy/respect) em pa positions in my state. I now have one of them. don't think of MD/DO residency as school, think of it as your first job as a physician. In my mid-40's and almost done with an academic doctoral program I am still thinking(although not very seriously at this point) about finding a way to be a physician....just need a sweeter bridge program....:).....2 years, no mcat, no ochem and I would still go, although at this point I would do FP, not EM as FP still allows you to do rural EM(my primary interest) + lots of other stuff like ob, hospitalist, icu coverage, etc I hear you on the bridge program! I was eyeing that LECOM option as a possible escape hatch if I didn't like being a P.A., but only one year credit is a bit light. As for thinking of residency as your first job out of school, I agree with you 100%. The only thing holding me back at the moment is my fear of "specialty commitment". I really like that PA's can bounce around, especially with how narrow most MD/DO scopes of practice seem to be (same procedures/types of cases day in, day out). I've already had 3 or 4 different types of professional careers (each one it's own adventure), and I'm not sure that I want to be one type of doctor for ever and ever. That said, I know that Internists can do different kinds of fellowships that allow them to change to EM or Sports Med if they want to, so there is always that. If you didn't KNOW that you loved EM (with the advantage of your current experience), would you still pull the trigger on DO over PA? Argh, so torn! :smile: (Doesn't help that my cumulative GPA for PA school is like a 2.8, whereas my cumulative GPA for DO school is like a 3.2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 22, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 22, 2013 I would still choose DO if I was starting over...much more opportunity in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToppDog Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I would still choose DO if I was starting over...much more opportunity in the grand scheme of things. What's your opinion on their opportunities internationally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 22, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 22, 2013 What's your opinion on their opportunities internationally? Better than ours and Getting better every year. being a DO would not stop you from volunteering or working internationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemarco Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 If I may ask, what domestic opportunities would a D.O. have over a P.A.? It seems that money and independence would be the chief benefits. I always imagined that while a D.O. would be limited in what they can do outside of his or her specialty, a P.A. can work in any specialty. Not trying to be contrary: both apps are in and I'm literally on the tipping point here. Your perspective is invaluable to me! :smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSUnoles Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 at least i dont feel so bad after i got passed up for a New physician at an ENT i rotated at. Their avg is 383 and they are starting this guy at 170k. They would have prob pulled some low ball offer on me. interesting stuff talking to PAs during school and seeing what on avg the docs are pulling in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator ventana Posted August 23, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2013 hummm math review Undergrad - 100k Medschool - 200k Total Debt 300k Average Doc pay - lets call it $250k all of a sudden that "crushing debt" that so many of the doc's talk about, well, that is about the same as my $100k in debt for PA.... little over one years salary.... This of course does not include the MANY loan public loan repayments and the also many private (where the hospital just pays off the loans) deals that go on. if you are a pipeline student - undergrad at 22, 1-2 years off, med school grad at 27, finish residency at about 32, then make 200-500k per year for the rest of your life..... seems like a pretty sweet deal to me..... working 30 years yields income of between 6 MILLION and 15 MILLION Hard to swallow the "we can't afford to pay you any more then 76k per year" or "we can't afford any more then $1,000 CME" or my favorite "the doc's all get full health insurance for family, but you need to pay 50%"(wrong on so many levels) arguments with data like that (especially when the PA is a revenue GENERATOR for a practice) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 23, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2013 If I may ask, what domestic opportunities would a D.O. have over a P.A.? It seems that money and independence would be the chief benefits. I always imagined that while a D.O. would be limited in what they can do outside of his or her specialty, a P.A. can work in any specialty. Not trying to be contrary: both apps are in and I'm literally on the tipping point here. Your perspective is invaluable to me! :smile: autonomy and scope of practice is the big reason. I could care less about the money. I recently took a job with great scope of practice and autonomy(one of the few em positions of its kind in my state) without ever asking what it paid. now that I know what it pays(as I got my first check) I am pleased but would do it for half as much. a family medicine md/do can pretty much do anything they want outside of the o.r. and even some stuff in the o.r. (c-sections for example). run a clinic, work in the e.r., do lots of procedures( flex -sig, vasectomies, treadmills, most derm procedures,etc), follow pts in the hospital including the icu, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 KEEP in mind. 200K in loans you wind up paying back MUCH MORE than 200K. With interest over a 10 year pay back period you could EASILY be paying back 350-450K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocialMedicine Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 My dear physician friend is an anesthesiologist ... private undergrad college, 1 year MS in biomedical engineering, MD private university he has currently 280K in loans. He will likely pay back 500+K over a 15-20 year period unless he can make nice bulk payments. However, being a new MD in a saturated area he may only make 250 starting and the government will take 70 of that up front. He will certainly do well financially, even now, but its not as glamorous as you may think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSUnoles Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 My dear physician friend is an anesthesiologist ... private undergrad college, 1 year MS in biomedical engineering, MD private university he has currently 280K in loans. He will likely pay back 500+K over a 15-20 year period unless he can make nice bulk payments. However, being a new MD in a saturated area he may only make 250 starting and the government will take 70 of that up front. He will certainly do well financially, even now, but its not as glamorous as you may think. Yep saturation hits docs just as bad as us Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator EMEDPA Posted August 23, 2013 Moderator Share Posted August 23, 2013 Yep saturation hits docs just as bad as us Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4 yup, it's almost like they should consider moving to areas where their services are in greater demand and they could get loan payback.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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