DHsc vs PhD

[EMEDPA]

welcome Dr. Ewing! I very much enjoyed taking your Comparative International Health Systems course last year and Global Health Ethics the year before.

[doubledown10]

I'm a graduate of the DHSc program from NSU and I agree, Dr. Kelly is an amazing director and facilitator of that program. Very approachable, always professional and understanding. Some people do thing that the PhD is the cats meow, but I try to hold things in perspective. I'm in my mid thirties, have car payments, mortgages and resposibilities that make it near impossible for me to devote a significant amount of my time to research. The DHS degree was a perfect fit for me. It challenged me, changed my outlook on quite a few things as well. The degree and education process is what you make of it. I'm sure in our collective travels and experiences that I'm not the only one that has met PhD holders that don't measure up to snuff. If I was 20 years younger and could afford it, maybe I would go the PhD route, but then again, research is not a passion for me and I don't care what alphabet soup I have behind my name. The DHS degree from NSU provides the graduate with more than adequate research experience.

 

And EMEDPA is always dropping solid knowledge and has a lot of experience and is active on the forum.

[hewing]

Thank you for your email. I am not sure who this is going to but I am glad you enjoyed the course work. All the best, Helen

 

welcome Dr. Ewing! I very much enjoyed taking your Comparative International Health Systems course last year and Global Health Ethics the year before.

[Mainer]

Interesting conversation. I recently finished a career at a state university system 6 yrs ago (decided to become a PA:confused:). I know nothing about the DHsc degree other than from reading this forum, but I can speak a little about some of my experiences and understandings. Applied and/or professional "doctorates" have been the subject of discussion (and controversy) in academic circles over the last 10+ yrs. I do agree with those who suggest that the PhD is favored in academics. N=1, but my institution does not recognize applied/professional doctorates for faculty rank and tenure. I'll give an example. My last experience as part of a faculty search committee involved the recruitment of a math professor (I represented an outside department). 1st, I am not aware of any other degree other than a PhD offered in pure mathematics; however, there are EdD degrees that focus on mathematics education. They tend to teach number systems, applied coursework in mathematics for teachers, ect (at least that is my understanding), but they do not do the same rigorous coursework in mathematics/publications/papers. One does a thesis in population studies, administrative practices and surveys, the other wrote mathematical formulas and papers further advancing complex problems, proofs, and philosophical theory. Our institution spent about 20k just to advertise in professional journals to attract candidates for this position. We had about 40 applications. We interviewed 4-5. I don't recall how many, but several of the applicants had EdD in applied mathematics. They were never considered. I don't think we bothered to read the resume, although there is a role for this degree in higher education as faculty and there are social/education department members with the EdD at my institution. Based on my own inquiry, a person with an EdD in mathematics may have never taken a math course beyond calc 1 or 2 (as their focus is very different). Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent close to 75K to find and hire the right, highly qualified candidate (not including relocation expenses, salary, benefits, housing package). The person who we hired has a PhD. Their academic and scholarly endeavors were critically analyzed and vetted. We reviewed their transcripts, their published and their unpublished work submitted for review. If they recently defended their thesis, we sometimes talk to members of the candidate’s doctoral committee and advisor. The process is long and exhausting. The individual we hired came aboard as an assistant professor. They had 6 yrs. to prove themselves and achieve tenure (or not). The point is that credible academic institutions don't take chances on these newly acclaimed doctorate degrees, which are inherently “soft”, by academic standards, in comparison. Further, in fields such as the arts and sciences (language, literature, mathematics, and basic sciences) I’m not aware of any other choice other than the PhD as a terminal degree (exception might be some European degrees). Not everybody who works in academics has a PhD and not everyone with a PhD works in academics, but the PhD is without question the quintessential academic degree. It’s not about alphabet soup; it’s about content and substance. The individual’s formal preparation and scholarly achievements have to prepare them for work as a scholar and professor. There are a lot of anecdotal stories being shared, but the process of earning a PhD is a proven process for preparing scholars.

[physasst]

Interesting conversation. I recently finished a career at a state university system 6 yrs ago (decided to become a PA:confused:). I know nothing about the DHsc degree other than from reading this forum, but I can speak a little about some of my experiences and understandings. Applied and/or professional "doctorates" have been the subject of discussion (and controversy) in academic circles over the last 10+ yrs. I do agree with those who suggest that the PhD is favored in academics. N=1, but my institution does not recognize applied/professional doctorates for faculty rank and tenure. I'll give an example. My last experience as part of a faculty search committee involved the recruitment of a math professor (I represented an outside department). 1st, I am not aware of any other degree other than a PhD offered in pure mathematics; however, there are EdD degrees that focus on mathematics education. They tend to teach number systems, applied coursework in mathematics for teachers, ect (at least that is my understanding), but they do not do the same rigorous coursework in mathematics/publications/papers. One does a thesis in population studies, administrative practices and surveys, the other wrote mathematical formulas and papers further advancing complex problems, proofs, and philosophical theory. Our institution spent about 20k just to advertise in professional journals to attract candidates for this position. We had about 40 applications. We interviewed 4-5. I don't recall how many, but several of the applicants had EdD in applied mathematics. They were never considered. I don't think we bothered to read the resume, although there is a role for this degree in higher education as faculty and there are social/education department members with the EdD at my institution. Based on my own inquiry, a person with an EdD in mathematics may have never taken a math course beyond calc 1 or 2 (as their focus is very different). Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if we spent close to 75K to find and hire the right, highly qualified candidate (not including relocation expenses, salary, benefits, housing package). The person who we hired has a PhD. Their academic and scholarly endeavors were critically analyzed and vetted. We reviewed their transcripts, their published and their unpublished work submitted for review. If they recently defended their thesis, we sometimes talk to members of the candidate’s doctoral committee and advisor. The process is long and exhausting. The individual we hired came aboard as an assistant professor. They had 6 yrs. to prove themselves and achieve tenure (or not). The point is that credible academic institutions don't take chances on these newly acclaimed doctorate degrees, which are inherently “soft”, by academic standards, in comparison. Further, in fields such as the arts and sciences (language, literature, mathematics, and basic sciences) I’m not aware of any other choice other than the PhD as a terminal degree (exception might be some European degrees). Not everybody who works in academics has a PhD and not everyone with a PhD works in academics, but the PhD is without question the quintessential academic degree. It’s not about alphabet soup; it’s about content and substance. The individual’s formal preparation and scholarly achievements have to prepare them for work as a scholar and professor. There are a lot of anecdotal stories being shared, but the process of earning a PhD is a proven process for preparing scholars.

 

Agreed, but it depends on focus. My training (thanks to hewing) was in organizational behavior. If you want a bench degree, or "hard" science degree (math, physics, biology, chemistry, etc.) than of course the PhD is the degree to get. However, you can transition into a health services research career ("soft" sciences) with a DHSc.

 

I have an Assistant Professor rank at one of, if not the MOST, prestigious academic medical centers in the world. We have never had tenure, although interestingly, we just received word yesterday that tenure would start to be awarded at the Associate Professor level. I have also been encouraged to apply for a postdoctoral research fellowship that would involve a 40% time commitment over the next two years to receive more education and training....Additionally, I have been told by the NIH, AHRQ, and HRSA that the DHSc degree with my background makes me very competitive for grant funding, from an RO3, K awards, to an RO1.

 

I am currently the PI on 3 different studies here, and I am also working collaboratively with researchers from the UK, Australia, and Canada.

 

So, while I am not disagreeing with you regarding your experience with the PhD degree, for health services research, the DHSc CAN work. I am also the only Organizational Scientist at my institution. I know this because I am working on a new organizational communication theory, and tried to find out if there were more senior members here that I could "bounce" ideas off of.....essentially modeling on a white board, unfortunately.....I'm it. SO, I've HAD to reach out outside my institution. I'm still learning more everyday.

[G. Davenport]

There are a lot of anecdotal stories being shared, but the process of earning a PhD is a proven process for preparing scholars.

 

And the DO, PA, and NP are not medical providers. They simply are not a proven process for preparing practitioners. Oh, and lets not forget - you can't join that country club unless your skin is the right color.

 

I'm sorry but ignorant old school thoughts and the days of a 'liberal arts' institution are a path to bankruptcy. IMHO. Not trying to offend but...

[SocialMedicine]

the vetting process of a PhD degree is a bit more universally recognized. if you come to me with a PhD from a known institution I have confidence you acquired certain level of research mentorship/experience, diverse reading list with oral examination in areas of specialty by experts in that area, and some type of dissertation. Degrees such as the D.H.Sc may have components of this but not always the same rigorous of an in person full PhD program. Then again people with the D.H.Sc usually choose this route because they are also practicing medicine and I feel the experience and maturity through that experience is worth something. The public health and medical schools where I have trained would not take someone as a faculty member with D H Sc unless they were also a PA or nurse and joining one of those departments, or if they had a very noteworthy CV.

[EMEDPA]

I think an evaluation of the individual degree and institution is always important. I know a guy who wears PA, PhD on his name tag, puts it on his scripts, etc and he got the "PhD" from a diploma mill now out of business that credited him for life experience by taking one class and sending in 1 paper.

[kargiver]

E (and all),

 

getting a DHSc suffers from academic snobbery. It isn't a PhD, and the purists want to keep it that way. Everything else in higher education has been "corrupted" by degree creep and the uncontrolled upward spiral of overeducating The masses. You may find refuge in some places with it, but behind closed doors in academic circles, you will be looked down upon for your different initials.

 

Much like being a PA.

 

G

[SoCalPA]

Anyone heard of the DHsc program at University of St Augustine?  Whats your impression?

[EMEDPA]

like several of the other DHSc programs(Drexel, etc) they focus on physical and occupational therapists only.

[SoCalPA]

Huntington College of Health Sciences in Knoxville TN has a DHSc but I'm not so sure about their accreditation. They are accredited by Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA)

 

Also the degree seems to be geared somewhat towards nutrition.  They do however have a personalized concentration.

 

It states:

 

"A minimum of a master’s degree in a health related field*

or

A minimum of a master’s degree and significant professional experience in a health related field*

 

*Academic prerequisites: Minimum 3.0 GPA, completed undergraduate coursework in biology and statistics, and completed graduate coursework in nutrition and biochemistry."

 

Wonder if they'd count PA curriculum as meeting nutrition and biochem? If they could be convinced to accept undergrad nutrition to satisfy that requirement?

[EMEDPA]

If you are going to get a DHSc at this point I would stick with the 2 programs with proven track records- Nova and ATSU.

[KMD16]

If you are going to get a DHSc at this point I would stick with the 2 programs with proven track records- Nova and ATSU.

Agreed. NOVA here I come. A doctorate is a doctorate IMHO.

[EMEDPA]

Agreed. NOVA here I come. A doctorate is a doctorate IMHO.

send me a PM if you have any questions above the Nova program. I have had a great experience there.

[henryd]

any good online phd/dhsc programs that can be relevant for PAs, to further enhance their careers? maybe something they can do after retirement?

[EMEDPA]

any good online phd/dhsc programs that can be relevant for PAs, to further enhance their careers? maybe something they can do after retirement?

both Nova Southeastern and ATSU are distance learning with a few required weeks on campus during the program.

[svafadar]

This has been a very interesting forum discussion, I have to say. I am about to start NSU's DHSc program in the next few days, and I've been investigating a "terminal degree" for about the past year. I know that this is an old discussion, but I wanted to try to revive it to see if any of the original posters had anything else to add about their experiences with the DHSc. 

 

Just a little background on myself, I'm a practicing physician assistant in the department of thoracic medical oncology at Moffitt Cancer Center, and I've been a PA for four years, now. I am completely satisfied in my current role - currently. However, I have always had "academic itches" that needed to be scratched. I can attribute my obtaining PA certification to one of these "itches," many years ago. And now, I have another itch: a doctorate. However, it seems that my profession was not designed as one in which doing research was that relevant - in comparison to the MD and, arguably, the NP. While I have interests in research, mostly stemming from my involvement as a "sub-investigator" in clinical trials, I am not in love with research. The DHSc program seemed like a more flexible, relevant path of study for my interests, perhaps opening the door to both research and administrative activities in the future. I've looked at what the degree coursework entails and feel like this next educational step would leverage me better in potential activities down the road.

 

I know that the "purists" would likely disagree, however.

[rpackelly]

I retired as director last year but I am sure you will be happy with the program, especially as your first summer institute is in your home town! Take advantage of recent grads here (EMDPA and dizzyjon). You will make many academic contacts in PA education and that will help you if you ever want to go to the dark side :-)

[DizzyJ]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:33 AM, svafadar said:

This has been a very interesting forum discussion, I have to say. I am about to start NSU's DHSc program in the next few days, and I've been investigating a "terminal degree" for about the past year. I know that this is an old discussion, but I wanted to try to revive it to see if any of the original posters had anything else to add about their experiences with the DHSc. 

 

Just a little background on myself, I'm a practicing physician assistant in the department of thoracic medical oncology at Moffitt Cancer Center, and I've been a PA for four years, now. I am completely satisfied in my current role - currently. However, I have always had "academic itches" that needed to be scratched. I can attribute my obtaining PA certification to one of these "itches," many years ago. And now, I have another itch: a doctorate. However, it seems that my profession was not designed as one in which doing research was that relevant - in comparison to the MD and, arguably, the NP. While I have interests in research, mostly stemming from my involvement as a "sub-investigator" in clinical trials, I am not in love with research. The DHSc program seemed like a more flexible, relevant path of study for my interests, perhaps opening the door to both research and administrative activities in the future. I've looked at what the degree coursework entails and feel like this next educational step would leverage me better in potential activities down the road.

 

I know that the "purists" would likely disagree, however.

My experience with the DHSc was good in regard to being able to complete the program while working full time, having 2 children, moving around the country, and the course work was relevant to my desire to enter into academics and/or administration.  I had only two complaints about the program.  There are a couple hands off professors.  Yes, the program is distance learning, but I feel the professors should be engaged in the course.  Several professors were excellent.  They showed a presence on the discussion boards and used additional methods to be interactive by use of live chat sessions both online and teleconference.  Second, I wanted other degree track options.  I had no interest in global health and did the generalist track.  Of course, 2 months after graduating, they have added an education track. 

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions about the program. 

[Joelseff]

On 6/24/2017 at 8:33 AM, svafadar said:

This has been a very interesting forum discussion, I have to say. I am about to start NSU's DHSc program in the next few days, and I've been investigating a "terminal degree" for about the past year. I know that this is an old discussion, but I wanted to try to revive it to see if any of the original posters had anything else to add about their experiences with the DHSc. 

 

Just a little background on myself, I'm a practicing physician assistant in the department of thoracic medical oncology at Moffitt Cancer Center, and I've been a PA for four years, now. I am completely satisfied in my current role - currently. However, I have always had "academic itches" that needed to be scratched. I can attribute my obtaining PA certification to one of these "itches," many years ago. And now, I have another itch: a doctorate. However, it seems that my profession was not designed as one in which doing research was that relevant - in comparison to the MD and, arguably, the NP. While I have interests in research, mostly stemming from my involvement as a "sub-investigator" in clinical trials, I am not in love with research. The DHSc program seemed like a more flexible, relevant path of study for my interests, perhaps opening the door to both research and administrative activities in the future. I've looked at what the degree coursework entails and feel like this next educational step would leverage me better in potential activities down the road.

 

I know that the "purists" would likely disagree, however.

Check out the discussion about the DMS here. That might be what you are looking for and with pending legislation, might be what a lot of us are looking for should the law pass. Only thing is it's only in Tennessee...for now. 

[PACShrink]

This is a really stimulating discussion. I stumbled onto this while researching the DHSc at NOVA, Telehealth curriculum. I am taking the newly introduced Telehealth Concentration. http://healthsciences.nova.edu/healthsciences/dhs/telehealth_curriculum.html

 It is being offered starting January 2018. The first course is being taught by an Adjunct faculty member: Matthew Caines DHEd. So far the course has been opening my eyes to the future of telehealth and possibly the path to a DHSc.

 I have not compared the degree to any others. At 61 credit hours, currently $642 per credit hours + fees would total in at around $43,000. Some will argue that you can't put a price on education but, maybe they have never seen a tuition bill for a doctoral level degree program. If anyone has any questions about the telehealth curriculum, feel free to ask.TelehealthFlyer2017.pdfTelehealthFlyer2017.pdfTelehealthFlyer2017.pdf